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| No. 31 |
Nov 16, 2009, 05:39 PM
Re: Bowing obama Originally Posted by Kyrshamarks What gets me is the ignorance and how little people really know how the world works and what simple displays of submission or weakness or even what some would consider mannerrs but others do not, has at the level of politics and power that the president works at. A simple bow sends a message to people that he does not consider himself or his country as equals to the people he is bowing to. Also why do we have to adopt their customs as some people imply weh it is not our custom. What is so wrong with our customs. They have served us well for over 200 years. I am so tired of American apologists saying how bad we have behaved. I say we have not beghaved badly, but other countries have and I know that I am not the only one.
I care how he shows off as our leader and what he does.
Completely disagree and can't fathom your way of thinking and the conclusions you make, but understand that you're not alone in making them. But that's just the way it's going to have to be ignorant though I may be. It would be one thing if we were enemies with Japan. We haven't been for 50 plus years.
| | No. 32 |
Nov 16, 2009, 05:42 PM
Re: Bowing obama Originally Posted by Kyrshamarks What gets me is the ignorance and how little people really know how the world works and what simple displays of submission or weakness or even what some would consider mannerrs but others do not, has at the level of politics and power that the president works at. A simple bow sends a message to people that he does not consider himself or his country as equals to the people he is bowing to.
Really Kyrshamarks?! Really! You think that the Japanese are sitting at home gloating, thinking they have finally conquered us now that Mr.Obama has bowed down to them? Are they plotting against us now because we have shown a crack in our mighty armor?
I think the real weakness is being shown by your fear of a simple courtesy, if something so simple could lead to our downfall and loss of standing in the world then we are not as mighty as you think.
| | No. 35 |
Nov 17, 2009, 10:15 AM
Re: Bowing obama
Sooooo ... if I'm reading this correctly, then when foreigners visit our country they are expected to speak English and respect and conform to our customs, including the gestures of politeness, even though they may be directly opposite to their own customs (ie, the whole business of direct eye contact, etc).
Yet, when WE visit THEM, conforming to THEIR ideas of politeness and custom when in THEIR country is equivalent to submission and are gestures of inferiority.
HMPH! There is definitely something wrong with this picture. I guess that for some folks, some animals really are more equal than others.
| | No. 36 |
Nov 17, 2009, 10:16 AM
Re: Bowing obama Originally Posted by Spidey's mom I don't remember anyone saying visitors to our country must acquiesce to every jot and tittle of our country's customs and language.
I do remember people saying if you are going go live here, learn English. I would say the same thing to an American going to live in another country - learn the language.
As to customs . . . I love the fact that America is full of folks from all walks of life. There is a lot of diversity here. It is a huge country.
Still . . . no one has answered the question about the REAL protocol issue . .. is our President supposed to bow? http://townhall.com/columnists/MonaC..._low_can_he_go
How Low Can He Go?
. . . ."Protocol is not the explanation. While there have been exceptions, American presidents have not traditionally bowed to royalty. Nor have American diplomats or citizens of any stripe. Kings and queens of England have visited America and been quite satisfied to receive a dignified handshake from Americans high and low. President Roosevelt famously served Great Britain's King George VI and Queen Elizabeth hot dogs at his Hyde Park home.
When it comes to body language, it's best to stick to your own culture and traditions. A too-eager attempt to ingratiate by adopting others' customs can backfire. According to one Asian expert consulted by ABC's Jake Tapper, Obama's low bow caused considerable consternation in Japan. Apparently, a proper Japanese bow under the circumstances would have been executed with hands at the sides, and a slight tilt from the waist. "The bow as he performed it did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms ...The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak-looking American president and, again, in all ways, he unintentionally played that part.". . . . . ."
. . . . . ."Here, let the New York Times explain it. In 1994, the Times gently rebuked President Clinton for "almost" bowing to the Japanese emperor. "It wasn't a bow, exactly," the editorial chided, "(b)ut Mr. Clinton came close. He inclined his head and shoulders forward, he pressed his hands together. It lasted no longer than a snapshot, but the image on the South Lawn was indelible: an obsequent President, and the Emperor of Japan. Canadians still bow to England's Queen; so do Australians. Americans shake hands. If not to stand eye-to-eye with royalty, what else were 1776 and all that about?". . . .
You have a point, but then there is the concept that an attempt to step outside one's comfort zone changes the dynamic, sometimes favorably, sometimes not. It's a risky move, for sure ... and there's one of the core ideas on which we differ.
Those who have power don't have to take risks ... they can demand that everyone else take the risk so that they can stay comfortable in familiar social territory. Imho, to take a step away from one's comfort zone demonstrates considerable courage in the service of establishing a more equitable, cooperative relationship as opposed to an inequitable, coercive one.
There are those that argue that the US is in a dominant position vis-a-vis the rest of the world and so they should display submission to us, not the other way around. Dominance/submission ... referred to in the leather community as D/s for short. Kind of resembles a troop of baboons that way.
The point some of us are trying to make is that it isn't a zero-sum game ... to respect another does not mean one is disrespecting oneself or the people one represents. D/s has nothing to do with it.
It's interesting that some who rail most vociferously against evolutionary theory (and I am not referring to anyone in this thread) insist on behaving just like monkeys. | | No. 37 |
Nov 17, 2009, 10:27 AM
Updated
Nov 17, 2009 at 10:44 AM by heron
Re: Bowing obama Originally Posted by Spidey's mom
Has anyone noticed that this is exactly the way a baboon signals submission? It's a sexual presentation to a dominant animal ... ie the American People ... is that really what we want?
ETA bohica indeed!
| | No. 38 |
Nov 17, 2009, 10:29 AM
Re: Bowing obama
Has anyone noticed, too, that my posts are being displayed totally out of order?
What's up with that?
| | No. 39 |
Nov 17, 2009, 10:41 AM
Re: Bowing obama Originally Posted by heron Sooooo ... if I'm reading this correctly, then when foreigners visit our country they are expected to speak English and respect and conform to our customs, including the gestures of politeness, even though they may be directly opposite to their own customs (ie, the whole business of direct eye contact, etc).
Yet, when WE visit THEM, conforming to THEIR ideas of politeness and custom when in THEIR country is equivalent to submission and are gestures of inferiority.
HMPH! There is definitely something wrong with this picture. I guess that for some folks, some animals really are more equal than others.
I don't remember anyone saying visitors to our country must acquiesce to every jot and tittle of our country's customs and language.
I do remember people saying if you are going go live here, learn English. I would say the same thing to an American going to live in another country - learn the language.
As to customs . . . I love the fact that America is full of folks from all walks of life. There is a lot of diversity here. It is a huge country.
Still . . . no one has answered the question about the REAL protocol issue . .. is our President supposed to bow? http://townhall.com/columnists/MonaC..._low_can_he_go
How Low Can He Go?
. . . ."Protocol is not the explanation. While there have been exceptions, American presidents have not traditionally bowed to royalty. Nor have American diplomats or citizens of any stripe. Kings and queens of England have visited America and been quite satisfied to receive a dignified handshake from Americans high and low. President Roosevelt famously served Great Britain's King George VI and Queen Elizabeth hot dogs at his Hyde Park home.
When it comes to body language, it's best to stick to your own culture and traditions. A too-eager attempt to ingratiate by adopting others' customs can backfire. According to one Asian expert consulted by ABC's Jake Tapper, Obama's low bow caused considerable consternation in Japan. Apparently, a proper Japanese bow under the circumstances would have been executed with hands at the sides, and a slight tilt from the waist. "The bow as he performed it did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms ...The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak-looking American president and, again, in all ways, he unintentionally played that part.". . . . . ."
. . . . . ."Here, let the New York Times explain it. In 1994, the Times gently rebuked President Clinton for "almost" bowing to the Japanese emperor. "It wasn't a bow, exactly," the editorial chided, "(b)ut Mr. Clinton came close. He inclined his head and shoulders forward, he pressed his hands together. It lasted no longer than a snapshot, but the image on the South Lawn was indelible: an obsequent President, and the Emperor of Japan. Canadians still bow to England's Queen; so do Australians. Americans shake hands. If not to stand eye-to-eye with royalty, what else were 1776 and all that about?". . . .
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