HR 3962 Has Passed the House.

I am happy so many of you are happy. So when the hospitals and private companies that you work for drop your healthcare because it is cheaper to pay the 8% fine then provide its employees HC coverage i am glad that many here will jump for joy at only having government run/controlled healthcare coverage. I am happy that you will be happy to have to purchase your own gov't plan at a cost of $15,000 a year. I am happy that if you can't afford it that, according to the Pelosi plan, you will gladly go to jail. I am happy that you feel your mother/father, grandmother/grandfather, sickly brother/sister, your child born with some defect will not be afforded the care they would receive now. I am happy that you feel, that instead of you and your doctor making the choices best suited for you and your medical condition, you will gladly accept what the 16 member panel ALREADY appointed by the president w/o anyones consent or knowledge, has decided how , when AND IF you are to be treated. I am happy that you will be happy. But i wonder...just how long will your happiness last...when you get sick and dont get the treatment you know is available, or you get turned away because some stranger doesnt like your lifestyle, or believes that you weigh too much or too little to warrant proper treatment. I wonder when your taxes increase to 60% of pay and you can't or won't be able to afford other things will you STILL be happy. I hope so because it WILL happen unless you really read and understand what is going on NOW.

now let me continue w/a part of your post, with the addition of the word "equal".

"And this equal opportunity, includes not only a way to make a living, but the equal opportunity, not the right, to health care, cars, cell phones..."

the premise of the constitution, assumes equality of man.
until all are provided with equal opportunity from the beginning, then only middle and upper classes would seemingly be afforded any opportunities at all.

it is only right that with man being equal, this means to include equally mentally and physically able...
which obviously gives those w/access to healthcare, a notable headstart.

we really need to be exploring what "equal opportunity" truly means.

and whatever the constitution reads, it is clear there are debatable issues, which makes it subjective in nature.
which means, and has been repeatedly demonstrated, subject to interpretation.

again, that perception thing...

leslie

Franklin wrote a whole essay on this very topic and told "I have long been of your opinion, that your legal provision for the poor (in England) is a very great evil, operating as it does to the encouragement of idleness. We have followed your example, and begin now to see our error, and , I hope, shall reform it." (Smyth, Writings of Benjamin Franklin. 10:64

A survey of Franklin's views on counter-productive compassion is a lot like the following

1. Compassion which gives a drunk the means to increase his drunkenness is counter - productive . (Ibid., 5:538.)
2. Compassion which breeds debilitating dependency and weakness is counter-productive. (Ibid., 5:123.)
3. Compassion which blunts the desire or necessity to work for a living is counter- productive. (Ibid., 3:125-36
4. Compassion which smother the instinct to strive and excel is counter-productive. (Ibid., 3:136-37)

But the founders did recognize that it is a mandate of God to help the poor and under privileged. It is very interesting how they said this should be done.

Jefferson often disagreed with himself......(As anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes of reading his writings should be cognizant of.) Jefferson was the first anticorporatist which is why he is honored as one of the founders of the Democratic Party...



On my current reading list...http://www.amazon.com/What-Would-Jef...7825192&sr=8-1

If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. (Bergh, Writings of Thomas Jefferson 10;342)

Perhaps the democrats should head to his words.

I also would agree that to be anti corporatist, should also be an advisement our entire government should take a peak at, as they have become corporatist themselves.

I thought the five min. thing was a nice touch, but carries no merit.

President Grover Cleveland (a democrat), he vetoed legislation designed to spend federal taxes for private welfare programs. he wrote the following...

"I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the General Government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendency to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be constantly enforced that though the people support the Government the Government should not support the people.

The Friendliness and charity of our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow-citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the Government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of the kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood." Essays On Liberty

I have debated this quote with many liberal friends so I am aware of what arguements may come to this post.

"the premise of the constitution, assumes equality of man.
until all are provided with equal opportunity from the beginning, then only middle and upper classes would seemingly be afforded any opportunities at all."

I disagree with you here, Leslie, (respectfully so). Especially now adays, we have SO many social welfare programs, aid etc. available, that we do offer opportunities to poor people, more so than many other countries. (I could get into a whole other thread on the successes of these programs, but . . . ) This is the "Land of Opportunity", no? People came to this country with nothing but the clothes on their back, and an opportunity. They did it, and so do many others.

"it is only right that with man being equal, this means to include equally mentally and physically able...
which obviously gives those w/access to healthcare, a notable headstart."

And here, where do we not give access to health care? What is Medicaid? What is the ER? And you assume mentally and physically inablility or ability is included, although those things are not mentioned specifically, and yes, can be left to interpretation. However, back to my point, when does it stop? When do we stop being caring and compassionate and instead create dependence and the lack of motivation to do anything for themselves? It can take away pride in people, and dignity. There is where I have the moral problem with this.

I believe America is good, and that we can take care of our people, we don't need the government to tell us how. Look at all the fundraisers that are so successful! I think we should help people up, and help them to get on their feet again, not become their crutches.

"This corporeal globe, and everything upon it, belong to its present corporeal inhabitants during their generation. They alone have a right to direct what is the concern of themselves alone, and to declare the law of that direction; and this declaration can only be made by their majority. That majority, then, has a right to depute representatives to a convention, and to make the constitution what they think will be the best for themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:43

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Jefferson is speaking to the idea that the constitution is a living document that will be reevaluated by each generation in the context of their political times.