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12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas



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No. 30
from heron
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:27 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by tntrn View Post
In large part because the MP on a military base are the only soldiers allowed to carry weapons. How stupid is that?

Not stupid at all, IMHO. I understand that Police have to take off their guns in certain areas of the police station.

The presence of a firearm inevitably carries risk of escalating violence ... the more firearms, the more violence.

Even given the fact that the soldiers on site were trained to shoot ... can you imagine the carnage if they had all been armed and started shooting ... especially with what we know about PTSD?
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No. 31
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:31 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
He killed people he was supposedly trying to help.

That makes no sense.

Suicide by cop . . . he could have just shown up with a gun and started shooting at the ceiling . . not taking innocent soldiers' lives.

No . . .there is something really wrong here and no matter what, he was wrong to do what he did.

I've been hearing this off and on all morning on newscasts (more than Fox btw) . . .

If this was a Right-Wing Christian doctor who got in trouble for trying to proselytize his patients and gave away bibles the morning of the killing . . .would we be so kind to him?

steph
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No. 32
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:33 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by heron View Post
Not stupid at all, IMHO. I understand that Police have to take off their guns in certain areas of the police station.

The presence of a firearm inevitably carries risk of escalating violence ... the more firearms, the more violence.

Even given the fact that the soldiers on site were trained to shoot ... can you imagine the carnage if they had all been armed and started shooting ... especially with what we know about PTSD?
I think you are painting a picture of soldiers that is unfair.

steph
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No. 33
from heron
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:36 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by Spidey's mom View Post
He killed people he was supposedly trying to help.

That makes no sense.

Suicide by cop . . . he could have just shown up with a gun and started shooting at the ceiling . . not taking innocent soldiers' lives.

No . . .there is something really wrong here and no matter what, he was wrong to do what he did.

I've been hearing this off and on all morning on newscasts (more than Fox btw) . . .

If this was a Right-Wing Christian doctor who got in trouble for trying to proselytize his patients and gave away bibles the morning of the killing . . .would we be so kind to him?

steph
Never tried to claim he wasn't wrong or make excuses. There is no excuse or justification. Just saying I can see how it could happen, is all.

And what does "being kind" have to do with anything? I try to understand how irrational acts happen, whether the irrationality is Muslim or Christian.

Understanding and approval are two very different things.
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No. 34
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:41 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by heron View Post
Never tried to claim he wasn't wrong or make excuses. There is no excuse or justification. Just saying I can see how it could happen, is all.

And what does "being kind" have to do with anything? I try to understand how irrational acts happen, whether the irrationality is Muslim or Christian.

Understanding and approval are two very different things.
I want to know why too . . .but it is sounding more like people are looking for ways to blame the war or American soldiers for this . . rather than the guy who did this.

There is a difference between wanting to know what his reason/reasons were . . and trying to be understanding (kind).

"Poor guy - he had to counsel soldiers with PTSD" . . ."Poor guy, he was going to have to go to Iraq" . . .

I just don't think "poor guy" thoughts . . . .


steph
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No. 35
from heron
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:42 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by Spidey's mom View Post
I think you are painting a picture of soldiers that is unfair.

steph

Disagree ... it's a matter of control of the scene and knowing your target. The immediate goal would have been to control the scene and stop the shooting. The military police would have had a much more difficult job controlling the scene with bullets from multiple guns flying around.

Don't see how that reflects badly on the other soldiers present. They did their jobs, too ... first aid, keeping people out and away from danger as best they could ... good work from all present, as far as I can tell.
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No. 36
from heron
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:43 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by Spidey's mom View Post
I want to know why too . . .but it is sounding more like people are looking for ways to blame the war or American soldiers for this . . rather than the guy who did this.

There is a difference between wanting to know what his reason/reasons were . . and trying to be understanding (kind).

"Poor guy - he had to counsel soldiers with PTSD" . . ."Poor guy, he was going to have to go to Iraq" . . .

I just don't think "poor guy" thoughts . . . .


steph

The only one saying "poor guy" is you, steph. Where did I say that any of this justifies what he did?
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No. 37
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:46 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by heron View Post
The only one saying "poor guy" is you, steph. Where did I say that any of this justifies what he did?

I put quotes around "poor guy" but wasn't quoting . . . sorry.

The impression some comments leave is poor guy.

steph
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No. 38
from heron
Old Nov 06, 2009, 12:53 PM
Updated Nov 06, 2009 at 12:56 PM by heron

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
It's that POV thing again ... where I think I'm being non-pejorative, another might read it as approving.

I usually start figuring something out by framing it in terms that avoid demonizing the subject.

Then I decide whether I approve or not.

Just my personal process.

ETA: interesting how the semantics shifted just a bit. "To understand" and "to be understanding" have subtly different meanings. Maybe we shouldn't conflate the two.
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No. 39
from Moogie
Old Nov 06, 2009, 01:06 PM

Default Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Originally Posted by tntrn View Post
In large part because the MP on a military base are the only soldiers allowed to carry weapons. How stupid is that?
Asked the DH about this. Based on his own experiences in a war zone, he says that even though most personnel are armed, no one is permitted to carry weapons in a medical facility---a setting similar to the soldier readiness center where the shootings took place. I realize that this situation might prompt some people to think that all our soldiers should be armed at all times. Yet, that could cause more harm than good. In this instance, if there were soldiers who were armed and fighting back, the MPs could not have known who was the original shooter and who was shooting in self-defense. While arming every soldier might have stopped Hasan, it might have resulted in more casualties in that the MPs might have started shooting everyone who was also firing a weapon. Moreover, had others been armed and started shooting, how would the MPs have been able to determine who did this and what his motive was?

Additionally, regarding possession of private and military weapons on a stateside base, the DH had this to add. On a military base stateside, people can drive onto the base in their own private vehicles. It is illegal to have a military weapon in a private vehicle. (Depending on the state of alert on a particular base, private cars can be inspected when driving onto base.) Soldiers can be permitted to carry private weapons onto military bases (again, dependent on individual base policies) but if they're housed in barracks, they are required to keep their private weapons in a unit arms room. The thing is, Hasan was not permitted to carry any weapon into the soldier readiness center. In the military, there are rules. Officers and enlisted men and women alike know the rules and are expected to follow those rules to the letter, lest they disrupt the cohesiveness of the unit and erode military discipline. As an officer, Hasan was trusted to obey those rules. He was aware of the rules. He clearly had deep problems that should have been caught earlier that made him unfit to be in his capacity as a soldier and a physician.

My husband has worked with many people who were afraid to deploy. It is DH's experience that most soldiers who have severe stress reactions threaten self-harm (often suicide) rather than threats directed toward others. As a chaplain, he works individually with soldiers and either counsels them himself (yes, he has had extensive training) or he refers them to the VA system. Part of the purpose of soldier readiness centers is to do exactly the type of screening that Hasan obviously needed.

The thing is, obviously Hasan had issues that made him unfit for combat duty. As a psychiatrist, he may have felt very isolated and unable to confide in other physicians or mental health personnel. He may or may not have had access to a Muslim military chaplain and may have felt uncomfortable with Catholic, Protestant or Jewish chaplains. He MAY have had a superior officer tell him to suck it up and not be afraid. I find it disturbing that he had similar problems during medical school and residency. In spite of his problems, he was still promoted and still deemed suitable for deployment. Were red flags regarding his behavior ignored because, as a psychiatrist, he was desperately needed in a war zone?

I believe the best way to have avoided this tragedy was to have someone screen Hasan more carefully. Neither my husband or I believe that arming every person on the base would have prevented the tragedy or decreased the number of casualties. I sincerely hope Hasan does survive long enough to explain his motives and deal with the legal consequences of his behavior so that such a tragedy never happens again.
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