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| No. 40 |
Nov 06, 2009, 01:10 PM
Updated
Nov 06, 2009 at 01:15 PM by Spidey's mom
Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas Originally Posted by Moogie Asked the DH about this. Based on his own experiences in a war zone, he says that even though most personnel are armed, no one is permitted to carry weapons in a medical facility---a setting similar to the soldier readiness center where the shootings took place. I realize that this situation might prompt some people to think that all our soldiers should be armed at all times. Yet, that could cause more harm than good. In this instance, if there were soldiers who were armed and fighting back, the MPs could not have known who was the original shooter and who was shooting in self-defense. While arming every soldier might have stopped Hasan, it might have resulted in more casualties in that the MPs might have started shooting everyone who was also firing a weapon. Moreover, had others been armed and started shooting, how would the MPs have been able to determine who did this and what his motive was?
Additionally, regarding possession of private and military weapons on a stateside base, the DH had this to add. On a military base stateside, people can drive onto the base in their own private vehicles. It is illegal to have a military weapon in a private vehicle. (Depending on the state of alert on a particular base, private cars can be inspected when driving onto base.) Soldiers can be permitted to carry private weapons onto military bases (again, dependent on individual base policies) but if they're housed in barracks, they are required to keep their private weapons in a unit arms room. The thing is, Hasan was not permitted to carry any weapon into the soldier readiness center. In the military, there are rules. Officers and enlisted men and women alike know the rules and are expected to follow those rules to the letter, lest they disrupt the cohesiveness of the unit and erode military discipline. As an officer, Hasan was trusted to obey those rules. He was aware of the rules. He clearly had deep problems that should have been caught earlier that made him unfit to be in his capacity as a soldier and a physician.
My husband has worked with many people who were afraid to deploy. It is DH's experience that most soldiers who have severe stress reactions threaten self-harm (often suicide) rather than threats directed toward others. As a chaplain, he works individually with soldiers and either counsels them himself (yes, he has had extensive training) or he refers them to the VA system. Part of the purpose of soldier readiness centers is to do exactly the type of screening that Hasan obviously needed.
The thing is, obviously Hasan had issues that made him unfit for combat duty. As a psychiatrist, he may have felt very isolated and unable to confide in other physicians or mental health personnel. He may or may not have had access to a Muslim military chaplain and may have felt uncomfortable with Catholic, Protestant or Jewish chaplains. He MAY have had a superior officer tell him to suck it up and not be afraid. I find it disturbing that he had similar problems during medical school and residency. In spite of his problems, he was still promoted and still deemed suitable for deployment. Were red flags regarding his behavior ignored because, as a psychiatrist, he was desperately needed in a war zone?
I believe the best way to have avoided this tragedy was to have someone screen Hasan more carefully. Neither my husband or I believe that arming every person on the base would have prevented the tragedy or decreased the number of casualties. I sincerely hope Hasan does survive long enough to explain his motives and deal with the legal consequences of his behavior so that such a tragedy never happens again.
I just read this in my local paper: "Cone said Hasan was not known to be a threat or risk. He acknowledged that it was "counterintuitive" that a single shooter could kill and injure so many people. But he said the massacre occurred in "close quarters."
"With ricochet fire, he was able to injure that number of people," Cone said"
....."Officials are not ruling out the possibility that some of the casualties may have been victims of "friendly fire," that in the mayhem and confusion at the shooting scene some of the responding military officials may have shot some of the victims.. . ." "I was confused and just shocked," said Spc. Jerry Richard, 27, who works at the center but was not on duty during the shooting. "Overseas you are ready for it. But here you can't even defend yourself."
"And while he was an intern, Hasan had some "difficulties" that required counseling and extra supervision, said Dr. Thomas Grieger, who was the training director at the time" . . "At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.. ." http://www.redding.com/news/2009/nov...ting-rises-13/
I too wonder why he was promoted.
Seems like many red flags were ignored.
We need to use this as a learning experience and change things a bit I think.
Kudos to your husband Moogie - he is a true hero.
steph
| | No. 42 |
Nov 06, 2009, 01:13 PM
Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas Originally Posted by Spidey's mom I want to know why too . . .but it is sounding more like people are looking for ways to blame the war or American soldiers for this . . rather than the guy who did this.
(bold parts mine)
I don't condone the taking of any life under any circumstances, and I do hope this fellow gets some heavy consequences. BUT - huge but - maybe we should be blaming the war.
From two of my favorite columnists: What a shame that Americans are outraged about a soldier who goes on a killing spree in this country but cheer on soldiers who kill in Afghanistan because they are “defending our freedoms” and “keeping us safe from terrorists.” The truth, of course, is that the global war on terror is destroying our freedoms and creating terrorists. source If only he had been allowed to change his job, as in any normal human endeavor, the supposed shooter at Ft. Hood might have left in peace. Only the military claims the right to kill you or jail you for wanting to change your job, so the man was held against his will. This does not, needless to say, justify shooting others, here or overseas. He should simply have left the army. As should all soldiers destined for immoral and illegal wars. source
Wanna know something else? My brother, who just got back from A-stan, agrees with these things. He wants out and tries to talk any and everyone out of joining. Maybe we should be blaming the war machine. Were it not for the wrecked lives it causes, I don't think we'd be grieving as we are today. Unpopular but firm belief here.
| | No. 43 |
Nov 06, 2009, 01:26 PM
Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas Originally Posted by heron Not stupid at all, IMHO. I understand that Police have to take off their guns in certain areas of the police station.
The presence of a firearm inevitably carries risk of escalating violence ... the more firearms, the more violence.
Even given the fact that the soldiers on site were trained to shoot ... can you imagine the carnage if they had all been armed and started shooting ... especially with what we know about PTSD?
Good points, Heron. Something I have noticed about my husband's PTSD is that he used to startle very easily. He has had difficulty with unexpected loud noises, such as a car backfiring or firecrackers going off. Because he does not carry a weapon, his automatic reaction to such noises is to duck and cover. it is certainly conceivable that those soldiers who have been armed would automatically shoot in reaction to unexpected noises, especially if those noises reminded them of gunfire.
While news stories abound about soldiers with PTSD becoming violent toward others, in most cases they do not harm other people. Those we don't hear about in the media tend to drink, become depressed, abuse drugs or threaten suicide. However, soldiers who have been in war zones can act erratically when they return home. When DH had returned home from Iraq, he inadvertently went through a red light and was picked up by the police. Luckily, he had been at camp and was in uniform and the cop understood his explanation that he had been in Iraq, where one does NOT stop for red lights because of the chances of IEDs exploding. Recently, a soldier in the Twin Cities area was apparently not as lucky as DH because he was arrested for driving erratically and running red lights and he was shot and killed by the police because of his behavior. (Fortunately DH is aware that he is no longer in danger from IEDs and no longer runs red lights.)
I think it is very conceivable that other soldiers---most likely those who had previously been deployed---might have started shooting had they been armed and made the carnage worse.
| | No. 44 |
Nov 06, 2009, 01:50 PM
Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas Originally Posted by Elvish I don't condone the taking of any life under any circumstances, and I do hope this fellow gets some heavy consequences. BUT - huge but - maybe we should be blaming the war.
Wanna know something else? My brother, who just got back from A-stan, agrees with these things. He wants out and tries to talk any and everyone out of joining. Maybe we should be blaming the war machine. Were it not for the wrecked lives it causes, I don't think we'd be grieving as we are today. Unpopular but firm belief here.
Funny. We just had this discussion at home. DH, who has been in the military for 27 years, agrees with General McCrystal and thinks that the President should commit more troops to Afghanistan, to accomplish the mission of creating some semblance of peace and get out. He points to America's involvement with the Bosnian war as an example of appropriate military action. I love my husband, but I disagree with him. I think the costs of both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have been way too high, particularly in terms of lives that have been lost and destroyed.
My husband has truly loved his military career. He started out with ROTC in college, did active duty for several years, went into the ministry and became a chaplain in the Reserves and the Guard. He has always been proud to serve his country and, even if he privately disagreed with the war, he has always done his best to serve his fellow soldiers as a chaplain. Still, he is facing mandatory retirement next year and, unless something very dramatic occurs, he will not deploy again. He has mixed feelings; at first he was disappointed because he felt he might have just one more deployment in him but now he seems relieved that it's going to be over. At times he becomes quite depressed when he reads accounts of how the war in Iraq was mismanaged and that it might have been started because of reactions to inaccurate intelligence information. I think what bothers him is thinking that his sacrifices and the sacrifices of others have been in vain. Were they in vain? It is hard to say but one must ask that question when one sees young men and women come home in caskets or their lives completely ruined because of injuries, seen and unseen, that they have sustained.
Elvish, I am glad your brother is home. However, his struggle to regain a sense of life after deployment will be difficult. Please feel free to PM me if you ever need to ask questions.
And Steph, thank you for your kind words. I am very proud of DH's service and am thankful that he was able to come home because so many he knew did not.
| | No. 47 |
Nov 06, 2009, 04:33 PM
Updated
Nov 06, 2009 at 04:45 PM by heron
Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas Originally Posted by Kyrshamarks The guy climbs ona table and screams Allah Akbar before starting shooting. That is the definition of a muslim terrorist to me. he was not killing becasue of PTSD or he was upset. He was killing on behalf of his god. the press nor governmnet is not making a big deal of this because to do so would admit thier own failures and might just offend the poor muslims. Imagine though for a moment if the shootre stood ap and screamed some christian praise to god. the press would be all over this as a right wing nut job and how bad the christian are.
No one has claimed he had PTSD ... I certainly did not. I'm speculating on the psychological dynamics that might have triggered the atrocity in the first place.
I also think it's irresponsible to claim you know the whole story about why he did what he did. His religion most likely fed into his behavior in a big way ... but simple explanations usually don't cut it when it comes down to human behavior.
Just for the record, I am not now nor have I ever tried to justify these murders. Bottom line is, the dynamics don't make a difference regarding his guilt unless he's frankly psychotic ... and maybe not even then (I haven't made up my mind about that yet).
As far as the shooter is concerned, I tend to agree with Moogie ... there's a serious problem with psychological screening in the military. I think it's because of the split priorities: military vs therapeutic. It's worth some time to think about and discuss this stuff because those who persist in refusing to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
As for the couple of comments re "If the shooter was Christian ...", all I can say is puhleeze ... this isn't about Christians. And the only ones making it about Christians at all are those who want to feel persecuted.
I agree with steph ... let's attend to the victims.
| | No. 49 |
Nov 06, 2009, 06:14 PM
Re: 12 dead, 31 injured in shooting at Fort Hood Texas
Still, given that we've been on the receiving end of jihad for how many years by various Muslim groups who take exception to our influence/behavior in their part of the world, it's a reasonable question to ask.
I just don't think that it's the whole story.
Besides, framing anything as "religious" is a dead end ... no way to win that fight.
Fanaticism is, on the other hand, a whole other critter, characterized by a distinct lack of critical thinking and an overabundance of knee-jerk responses.
Meanwhile, how are the victims and their families? Are they getting what they need? Does anyone know?
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